Proyecto Jous en Picos de Europa

Ni que decir tiene que enhorabuena por las gestiones que habéis llevado a cabo y que el proyecto séa un éxito. Espero que en un futuro podamos colaborar en la medida de lo posible.

Hola,

Lo siento, no hablo español (poco)  (I use google translations to follow the discussions)

Let me introduce myself.
My name is Karel Holvoet (32) , and I'm from Bruselas, Belgica. I worked at the Royal Meteorological Institute in Ukkel from 2006 - 2009, on the department of climatology.

Since 2009 I'm looking for the coldest places in Europe. It started in Belgium but in 2010 I went to Austria, Slovenia, Germany and Spain.

I started to have contact with Slovenia, Italy and Austria. They all set up a project where several people are trying to find and understand the colpools in there country. Up till yesterday I didn't know that in Spain there were also people! I searched a lot in google, but no results. Yesterday, as a surprise, I found your forum!

Because I wasn't aware of your plans, I started my own project in spring this year. I wanted to study the microclimate in the Picos de Euopa, which I visited in november 2007. But in summer the Picos are very crowded and I decided to wait till winter season and start in other remote places in the Cantabrian Mountains. I looked in googlemaps and decided to start in the valley of Quiros. There I started June 2 of this year. (Puerto Ventana, Vega Socellares 1735m)

For me it's difficult to study the climate in Spain and living in Brussels, but I was fascinated how cold it can be in Spain. In Belgium, many people compare Spain with heat and sun. So I want to show to people here that it can indeed be very cold in some places in Spain. Every 2 months I visit Asturias now.

Ok, that's a very short introduction of myself. In the coming messages I will show my first results and other stuff. I've got permission to study the climate in the Biosphere Las Ubiñas-La mesa.

It would be nice that I could join your group of enthousiasts. Would be a pleasure to read and discuss the project. I speak dutch, french, german, english, but no spanish.

Here a short article about Quiros:
http://www.lne.es/centro/2012/07/09/belga-estudia-meteorologia-quiros/1267884.html

Bye for now,
Karel Holvoet
Bruselas (yesterday snow in Belgium near the coast!)

Nice to meet you Karel,

It`s really incredible that people of other countries know this cool caracteristic of Cantabric's Mountains. I'm very surprised 
I'm from Asturias, and most of people wich is studing coolpools nowadays are from there.This season we are six people, and we want to study five different coolpools in Picos de Europa. This week we will try to go to two different places if the weather is good.
I know the place you are studying now. I stayed here last year doing a trekking along Ubiñas. It`s a good place to have good minimal temperatures, but the potencial of Picos de Europa coolpools are better.
What kind of weather station do you use there in Socellares???We are going to use a davis like this:



With a temperature data logger like this:



If you want, I have facebook. We can talk about this more quickly. I`m Miguel Iglesias González 

Quien os iba a decir al principio que ibais a conseguir permisos del Parque y que iba a haber gente implicada de otros países en el proyecto si Karel se une a vosotros. Podrías poner un reportaje de los lugares,fotos... También podíais crear una página o un perfil de Facebook para daros a conocer.

Enhorabuena, Gracias

Un Saludo

P.D.: Sorry Karel, my English isn't very good.

Vamos poco a poco Davidjose,esperamos que para la temporada que viene, se haga todavía aún más serio con la colocación de más sensores y se realice una investigación más concisa con más datos.No obstante no os preocupeis porque en ningún momento se ocultaran los datos 

hoi Karel,

it'll be a pleasure to have you on board! we had read that article last summer, and it was a great surprise. Though as Michu says we expect more extreme results from the Jous in Picos, Socellares is certainly an excellent choice in terms of topography, innivation & ... accesibility!

The Ubiñas had a nice layer of snow yesterday, I was there by sunset with 0º at 1200 meters, in a place with no inversion at all and a cristal clear night ahead... note down October 29th for the first freezing  dawn of the season



certainly we'll have a lot to talk about. Maybe we could even help with data gathering, as for us Socellares is a quick day trip... though that risks costing you a couple of beers every now and then 

BTW, I speak both English and French... even... ik spreek een beetje nederlands ook (of vlaams!)

tot kijk!

Hola!

Thanks for the quick response! Is there a chat function on the forum? I don't want to spoil this topic with my english and don't want to disturb you guys with lot's of my comments.

@facuriellu: The Ubina region is wonderful, nature in Spain is incomparable with Belgium. Thanks for the information!

My station is indeed a solar radiation shield from Davis and I first used a datalogger from voltcraft but on october 2nd I changed it with this omega 63 logger:


I had many problems in Socellares due to the cows! Horrible. The only solution would be to install an electricity cable around the station (in summer). Often the station was down on the ground. The hotel owners of Hotel Fuentes de Lucia in Faedo, helped me by going up and putting it back into vertical position. I recently mailed them to ask if the station is still standing upright, but they didn't answer. It's possible that again the cows have pushed it down again.   Here the picture of october 4th:



I put some wire around it too and stones on the ground, but the caws won't go away i guess. Probably now they are on lower levels I hope! I left the station there on october 4 around 8 PM and it was nice and clear and -5° on the ground. Curious what the temperature would have been on the morning after.

On the same time I put a datalogger and an alcohol thermometer in another coldpool: Hoyos los Malvosinos on 1925m, near La Cueta. I just wanted to compare those coldpools on the night of 3 to 4 october. I hoped the wind would have dropped but in Malvosinos it continued the whole night. So the results don't add much: minima 0° (on the ground) in Malvosinos and -6° in Socellares on 1.8meter.


Malvosinos.

I concluded that Malvosinos is way too windy and will probably give too few windless 'windows' during winter. Socellares is also very windy, it's as you know exposed to the surroundings. But nonetheless I think it has a potential.


Ok, enough for now. Otherwise I would continue writing! :-)  If too many pictures aren't allowed please tell me. If there is a site to ship my data to.


ciao
Karel




 

Amazing! an international network for coolpools monitoring is emerging!
Congratulations for your effort and contribution to understand "cold spots" in Spain.
Karel, I wonder why you have choosen Central Cantabrian mountains to look for Spanish extreme coolpools and not the Pyrenees which presents better conditions a priori (altitude, continentality, orientation to continetal air masses).
And I would like to know, if possible, if your study is part of a broader European study supported by an institution or university. I mean, is it only a personal project or is there a deeper plannig for a long-term study with future published reports and articles?
I agree with the other, Picos is a better place to study coolpools due to its altitude and orographical configuration (calcareus geology, dolinas...). However, it is a fatastic idea to replicate observations in other Cantabrian massifs like Ubiñas or San Glorio-Alto Carrion (Curavacas, Espigüete, Peña Prieta), with different characteristics, especially their greater continentality in comparison with Picos, and differente geology and relief. That woul allow more comprenhensive comparisons among areas. 
I hope all this info will be available from your studies so we all can see and compare the cooling process during this autumn-winter.

Best regards

On the same time I put a datalogger and an alcohol thermometer in another coldpool: Hoyos los Malvosinos on 1925m, near La Cueta. I just wanted to compare those coldpools on the night of 3 to 4 october. I hoped the wind would have dropped but in Malvosinos it continued the whole night. So the results don't add much: minima 0° (on the ground) in Malvosinos and -6° in Socellares on 1.8meter.


Malvosinos.

I concluded that Malvosinos is way too windy and will probably give too few windless 'windows' during winter. Socellares is also very windy, it's as you know exposed to the surroundings. But nonetheless I think it has a potential.

Hello Karel:

Congratulations for investigating the coldpools in the Cantabrian mountains.

It is a wonderful surprise that you have investigated the zone of Hoyos Malvosinos in province of León.

For time a friend and I were thinking to put a datalogger to measure the temperature in the dolina that exists in this zone to 1923 meters.

I believe that the place of the map is to that you refer with the name of Hoyos Malvosinos. Is it correct?



We think that it is a place with potential much, but that is a place in which the wind will stop a few nights.

If finally you decide to measure the temperatures in Hoyos Malvosinos it would be good that you were communicating it to us. It is a very interesting place that deserves that his minimal temperatures are studied.

Regards

P.D. I´m sorrry for my limited English

Good evening,

@Muri
In fact it's a project on my own. No universities or other sponsoring-companies are involved. That's the reason why I can't put lot's of stations: too expensive.
I really googled a lot to find other people with the same passion in Spain. I couldn't find anyone. There is Bruno Renon from Italy who told me lately that there is someone in the Pyrenees who wanted to start with measurements, already a few years ago. Three days ago I first found this site, so I thought it could be him: http://climaynievepirineos.com/. But just after it I found your forum. So I don't know who the guy from the Pyrenees is.
Of course, because I was unaware, I started my own little project in spring 2012. I'm so glad to have found your forum. As a single man project and living in Belgium, it's impossible to extend the project seriously. As I told, I wanted to start in the Picos but the tourism in Summer is so big, that I decided to start somewhere else first. But now I am glad I did. It's like you said: "after all, the whole area of the Cantabrian mountains can be compared". The project has so many goals! Not only to break the record, definitely not. Otherwise I would first have started in Austria, Slovakia or Romania. Every time I walk in the mountains, I enjoy nature and combine it with facing the very cold temperatures in real. That's wonderful. That's something I would miss coming winter. I can not book a flight two days in advance of cold weather maps. I have to gamble. I want to be there when my fingers freeze off! 

It's now EU, european Union, so i look as a European citizen to it. I can understand it looks very strange for you that someone from Belgium investigates your region. In Italy it's pretty good organised with Bruno. In Slovenia Iztok and Gregor have a very good team. In Austria it's Manfred Dorninger and his team of the university. In germany there a also a few groups. But Spain? Now I found you.

The proximity of the sea and the mountains is very fascinating. The diversity in microclimates. All my data are of course shared with this forum. I still have lot's to learn, so I share as much as I can. Maybe I can exchange a little of my experiences from the last years. Although I read most of the sinkhole papers, I guess you guys are much better involved in the subject. After all every place is unique and despite the perfect ingrediënts are known, every place needs to be visited before a good conclusion can be made, I think...


@Leónnieve
Last time in Spain I wanted to combine measurements for a few days in Somiedo too. Thanks to topographic maps, it's a nice job at home to explore good possible coldspots. In Somiedo I found 'Lake Cebolleu' or 'Llaguna de Fuentes' but Cebolleu can have too much wind. I certainly miss other dolines I'm not aware off, but Llaguna de Fuentes looked nice. I found Los Malvosinos too (picture is taken there). But the wind, aaargh. Only few windows will be good so only after several years a very cold day would appear. I have only one station in Europe, that's Socellares. It will stay like that. But I hope I can, despite my distance, help you with your project. I can sponsor, visit you, join you on a trip to gather data, ...   would be a pleasure.

In three weeks I'm planning to go to Quiros again. Just to gather the data of october, combined with a visit to Somiedo. So if I could meet someone of the team, would be great!!
@ facuriellu: If you can visit my station earlier, I bring you the best Belgian beers. 

So, now you know a lot about my little project. It would be nice to get an overview of what your project is about. Which dolines have now a station in the Cantabrian mountains, Pyrenees, whole of Spain? The person from the Pyrenees is maybe a member here? Are there articles of your project? You understand I am curious about the locations you have already studied in detail. The potentially good dolines for low temperatures.

Of course the Pyrenees have beautiful spots too. So I hope some stations will come soon. You can 'play' with the altitude and set up stations even on 2800m, the highest possible in Europe. Tenerife is also a nice place.


Lol, I'm enthousiastic. :-) Seen the potential, -35° can easily be reached. What do you think?

Have a nice evening,
Karel

Bueno, la segunda instalación completada. No revelo la localización por motivos que podéis entender, pero que sepáis que es un Jou muy alto y con mucho potencial. Hubo que abrir bastante huella para llegar, y en el fondo del jou, al estar protegido del sol, "pasemos" bastante frío. La instalación la hicimos con clavos de escalada, cordino y espetando varilla roscada en una grieta para sostener la base del tubo. Quedó un poco revirao, pero creo que aguantará. Debo dar las gracias a mis dos compañeros de aventuras, fue un día duro pero intenso. La bajada, a golpe de frontal, fue de las de no olvidar. Ahora mismo estarán Facu, Michu y Besaya en algún punto del central intentando instalar nuestro tercer sensor. Hay bastante nieve en algunas zonas, y la maniobra es complicada, pero esperemos que lo consigan.

Dear Karel, forgive us for not disclosing our locations in this forum. We can go private if you wish, and talk at length. Yesterday it was a strenuous day for us, but quite rewarding. We managed to install our second sensor. We hope it will be a record-breaking Jou! Facu and the rest are striving right now to get the third sensor in place. It will be tough, but I believe they'll manage. We are all very excited about your participation. Definitely, we should gather for some bears when you are here! Of course we are more than willing to maintain your station if this makes things easier for you. I am among some of the people who would like to actually be at the place when the sensors hit the minus thirties... which will happen eventually. Cheers!