El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #504 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 16:54:56 pm »

está todo tan claro que van a revisar todo el sistema de investigación  ::)


Pero vamos a ver... ¿quien va a revisar todo eso?  ¿una comisión política? ¿unos abogados? ::)

El sistema peer-review ya hace años que fué criticado y se revisó, básicamente por que ya sucedió algo similar con relación a la teoría de supercuerdas (estaba tan de moda que quienes la criticaban no tenían manera de publicar).  El resulado de ésto fué el sistema de 'public peer-review' o sea arXiv y similares.

En otras palabras: quien no publica hoy en dia es porque no quiere.


O porque no sabe  ;)

Añadido: un ejemplo
http://arxiv.org/find/stat/1/au:+McIntyre_S/0/1/0/all/0/1

saludos
« Última modificación: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 17:09:50 pm por pj »

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #505 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 16:58:48 pm »
¡Gran hallazgo, Patagon! (ver dos comentarios atrás)

Si eso no es escepticismo científico, ¿el escepticismo, donde está?  ::)

Y el que lo niegue, doblemente negacionista será. ;D
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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #506 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 17:05:44 pm »
Va a ser muy ilustrativo releer estos temas dentro de unos años, mas o menos como esta pasando en lo de economía, pero esperando un poco mas.
« Última modificación: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 19:08:13 pm por Markel »

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #507 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 19:03:54 pm »
Ya se han dado varios avisos, es responsabilidad de todos no desviar el topic y intentar que haya buen ambiente, no se trata de entro aquí digo lo que me da la gana y si eso ya lo arreglarán los moderadores.
¿Una luz al final del túnel? Open Source Ecology

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #508 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 19:37:11 pm »
Interesante comentario en: Wattsupwiththat

Anda, el mismo blog donde está la explicación menos entendible del mundo del efecto invernadero
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/17/the-steel-greenhouse/

Y usa la palabra trick todo el tiempo. Una prueba contundente de que está manipulando al lector  ;D

Bueno. No sé que iba a esperar en un blog que de gente que ha demostrado con creces que no sabe de lo que habla
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/jump/

saludos

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #509 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 19:55:49 pm »
Interesante comentario en: Wattsupwiththat

I am a climate scientist, and it is clear that the evidence that “human activity is prominent [sic] agent in global warming” is NOT overwhelming. The repeated statement that it is does not make it so. Further, even if we accepted the hypothesis, cap-and-trade legislation does not do anything about it.

Here are the facts. We have known for years that the Mann hockey stick model was wrong, and we know why it was wrong (Mann used only selected data to normalize the principal component analysis, not all of it). He retracted the model. We have known for years that the Medieval Warm period occurred, where the temperatures were higher than they are now (Chaucer spoke of vineyards in northern England).

Long before ClimateGate it was known that the IPCC people were trying to fudge the data to get rid of the MWP. And for good reason. If the MWP is “allowed” to exist, this means that temperatures higher than today did not then create a “runaway greenhouse” in the Middle Ages with methane released from the Arctic tundra, ice cap albedo lost, sea levels rising to flood London, etc. etc.), and means that Jim Hansen’s runaway greenhouse that posits only amplifying feedbacks (and no damping feedbacks) will not happen now. We now know that the models on which the IPCC alarms are based to not do clouds, they do not do the biosphere, they do not explain the Pliocene warming, and they have never predicted anything, ever, correctly.

As the believers know but, like religious faithful, every wrong prediction (IPCC underestimated some trends) is claimed to justify even greater alarm (not that the models are poor approximations for reality); the underpredictions (where are the storms? Why “hide the decline”?) are ignored or hidden.

As for CO2, we have known for years that CO2 increases have never in the past 300,000 years caused temperature rise (CO2 rise trails temperature increase). IPCC scientists know this too (see their “Copenhagen Diagnosis”); we know that their mathematical fudges that dismiss the fact that CO2 has not been historically causative of temperature rise are incorrect as well. We have also known for years that the alleged one degree temperature rise from 1880 vanishes if sites exposed to urban heat islands are not considered.

We have long known that Jones’s paper dismissing this explanation (Jones, et al. 1990. Assessment of urbanization effects in time series of surface air temperature over land, Nature 347 169- 172) is wrong and potentially fraudulent (see the same data used to confirm urban heat islands in Wang, W-C, Z. Zeng, T. R Karl, 1990. Urban Heat Islands in China. Geophys. Res. Lett. 17, 2377-2380). Everyone except Briffa knows that the Briffa conclusions are wrong, and why they are wrong; groups in Finland, Canada (lots of places actually) show cooling by this proxy, not warming; the IPCC even printed the Finn’s plot upside down to convert the fact (cooling) into the dogma (warming).

Prof. McCarthy is, of course, part of the IPCC that has suppressed dissenting viewpoints based on solid climate science. His claim to support by “peer review” is nonsense; he has helped corrupt the peer review process. We now have documentary evidence that Jones, Mann, and the other IPCC scientists have been gaming peer review and blackballing opponents. On this point, the entire IPCC staff, including Prof. McCarthy, neither have nor deserve our trust.

We have tolerated years of the refusal of Mann and Jones to release data. Now, we learn that much of these data were discarded (one of about 4 data sets that exist), something that would in any other field of science lead to disbarment. We have been annoyed by Al Gore, who declared this science “settled”, refused to debate, and demonized skeptics (this is anti-science: debate and skepticism are the core of real science, which is never settled). The very fact that Prof. McCarthy attempts to bluff Congress by asserting the existence of fictional “overwhelming evidence” continues this anti-science activity.

All of this was known before Climategate. What was not known until now was the extent to which Jones and Mann were simply deceiving themselves (which happens often in science) or fraudently attempting to deceive others. I am not willing to crucify Jones on the word “trick”. Nor, for that matter, on the loss of primary data, keeping only “value added” data (which is hopelessly bad science, but still conceivably not fraud).

But the computer code is transparently fraudulent. Here, one finds matrices that add unexplained numbers to recent temperatures and subtract them from older temperatures (these numbers are hard-programmed in), splining observational data to model data, and other smoking guns, all showing that they were doing what was necessary to get the answers that the IPCC wanted, not the answers that the data held. They knew what they were doing, and why they were doing it.

If, as Prof. McCarthy insists, “peer review” was functioning, and the IPCC reports are rigorously peer reviewed, why was this not caught? When placing it in context made it highly likely that this type of fraud was occurring?

The second question is: Will this revelation be enough to cause the “global warming believers” to abandon their crusade, and for people to return to sensible environmental science (water use, habitat destruction, land use, this kind of thing)? Perhaps it will.

Contrary to Prof. McCarthy’s assertion, we have not lost just one research project amid dozens of others that survive. A huge set of primary data are apparently gone. Satellite data are scarcely 40 years old. Everything is interconnected, and anchored on these few studies. Even without the corruption of the peer review process, this is as big a change as quantum mechanics was in physics a century ago.

But now we know that peer review was corrupted, and that no “consensus” exists. The “2500 scientists agree” number is fiction (God knows who they are counting, but to get to this number, they must be including referees, spouses, and pets).

The best argument now for AGW is to argue that CO2 is, after all, a greenhouse gas, its concentration is, after all, increasing, and feedbacks that regulated climate for millions of years might (we can hypothesize) be overwhelmed by human CO2 emissions. It is a hypothesis worthy of investigation, but it has little evidentiary support.

Thus, there is hope that Climategate will bring to an end the field of political climatology, and allow climatology to again become a science. That said, people intrinsically become committed to ideas. The Pope will not become a Protestant even if angel Gabriel taps him on the shoulder and asks him to. Likewise, Prof. McCarthy may claim until the day he retires that there remains “overwhelming support” for his position, even if every last piece of data supporting it is controverted. As a graduate student at Harvard, I was told that fields do not advance because people change their minds; rather, fields advance because people die.



Amen

A pesar de la propaganda que nos quieren colar incluso en este mismo foro, que ya da más que pena pero no quiero usar palabras feas.  ::)

Se pilla antes al mentiroso que al cojo como se suele decir  ;D
OHIO!!!!! Is here!!!!!

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #510 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 20:11:56 pm »
Si y de momento han pillao a los del CRU.  ;)

Por cierto, tranquilos que lo va a investigar la ONU  :mucharisa:
http://www.abc.es/20091204/ciencia-tecnologia-ciencias-tierra/investigara-manipulacion-datos-sobre-200912041634.html
Es decir el IPCC  :mucharisa: :mucharisa: :mucharisa:
No hace falta que investiguen que ya sabemos lo que van a decir. Lo que sea con tal de seguir en la brecha.
Además no hay que investigar al CRU por esto sinó a los del IPCC que decidieron tomar el Palo de Hockey como Sancta Santorum de las mediciones de temperaturas y descartar todo lo demás.
Respecto a la noticia de la BBC, aunque escandalosa, en ningún momento dan ninguna prueba de que la BBC lo sabía. Si es cierto, la noticia está pésimamente escrita. Solo dicen que un Lord afirma que la BBC lo sabía. Y yo quiero saber como es que un Lord sabía que la BBC lo sabía.

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #511 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 20:39:50 pm »
(lo reconoció el meteorologo  que los recibió)

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #512 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 20:42:54 pm »
La línea de la editorial de Science gustará algo más en este foro que la de Nature. Por si a alguien le interesa
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BwBs_VRq8YdZZTYxZmU0NjgtMjA3MS00MjJhLWJkNWMtMWQ3ZDgwYzNkYzk1&hl=es

saludos

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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #513 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 21:36:29 pm »
Sensenbrenner: CRU Emails Evidence of “Scientific Fascism”

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By Agence France-Presse
Thursday, December 3rd, 2009 -- 8:12 pm

Leaked climate e-mails make waves in Congress

A row over leaked emails from a British scientist hinting at a global warming cover-up has reached the US Congress, where climate change skeptics are seeking to thwart key legislation.

British Professor Phil Jones has stood aside as director of the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, after his emails calling into question the scientific basis for climate change fears were leaked.

Hackers had penetrated the center's network and posted online thousands of emails from researchers, including Jones, ahead of a landmark Copenhagen summit which opens next week.

The leader of a US group of so-called "climatology skeptics", Republican Representative James Sensenbrenner, said "if the emails are genuine it is very disturbing because they call into question the whole science of climate change."

He told the House committee on energy independence and global warming that data from the East Anglia university had "been used as a basis for the IPCC report as well as for the US global research program."

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC's) benchmarks for CO2 concentrations in a 2007 report serve as a guidepost for the UN-backed talks in Copenhagen.

The e-mails showed "an increasing evidence that scientific fascism is going on," Sensenbrenner added.

"As policy makers are making decisions about the state of the American economy for the next several generations, we have to have accurate science and it appears that there is enough questions on whether the science we have is accurate."

Skeptics, including many Republicans, say global temperatures may be warming naturally, and argue the costs of implementing legislation to curb greenhouse gas emissions will be too heavy for American industry.

US President Barack Obama is to attend the Copenhagen climate conference next week with an offer to cut US emissions by 17 percent from 2005 levels by 2020.

The White House has said Obama would also lay out a longer-term plan for a 30 percent reduction of US emissions from 2005 levels by 2025, a 42 percent reduction by 2030 and an 83 percent cut by 2050.

The United States is the world's second largest greenhouse gas emitter.
GOP congressman: Climate change debate is ’scientific fascism’



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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #514 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 21:52:26 pm »
Pues Sarah Palin también "aprovecha la bolada" y agrega su granito de arena... y seguramente será de los que hacen ruido:

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The president’s decision to attend the international climate conference in Copenhagen needs to be reconsidered in light of the unfolding Climategate scandal. The leaked e-mails involved in Climategate expose the unscientific behavior of leading climate scientists who deliberately destroyed records to block information requests, manipulated data to “hide the decline” in global temperatures, and conspired to silence the critics of man-made global warming. I support Senator James Inhofe’s call for a full investigation into this scandal. Because it involves many of the same personalities and entities behind the Copenhagen conference, Climategate calls into question many of the proposals being pushed there, including anything that would lead to a cap and tax plan.

Policy decisions require real science and real solutions, not junk science and doomsday scare tactics pushed by an environmental priesthood that capitalizes on the public’s worry and makes them feel that owning an SUV is a “sin” against the planet. In his inaugural address, President Obama declared his intention to “restore science to its rightful place.” Boycotting Copenhagen while this scandal is thoroughly investigated would send a strong message that the United States government will not be a party to fraudulent scientific practices. Saying no to Copenhagen and cap and tax are first steps in “restoring science to its rightful place.”
:viejito: Heber Rizzo
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Re: El CRU (Climate Research Unit) de la Universidad de East Anglia, HACKEADO...
« Respuesta #515 en: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 22:57:56 pm »
[...]Saying no to Copenhagen and cap and tax are first steps in “restoring science to its rightful place.”

Un ex-CRU, Mike Hulme dice
"One thing the episode has made clear is that it has become difficult to disentangle political arguments about climate policies from scientific arguments about the evidence for man-made climate change and the confidence placed in predictions of future change. The quality of both political debate and scientific practice suffers as a consequence."

Esa frase de Sarah Palin es un magnífico ejemplo de esa confusión.

Por cierto, como ejemplo de radicalismo, propaganda, prepotencia, sesgo y manipulaciónn las palabras de Hulme
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Science never writes closed textbooks. It does not offer us a holy scripture, infallible and complete. This is especially the case with the science of climate, a complex system of enormous scale, at every turn influenced by human contingencies. Yes, science has clearly revealed that humans are influencing global climate and will continue to do so, but we don't know the full scale of the risks involved, nor how rapidly they will evolve, nor indeed—with clear insight—the relative roles of all the forcing agents involved at different scales.

Similarly, we endow analyses about the economics of climate change with too much scientific authority. Yes, we know there is a cascade of costs involved in mitigating, adapting to or ignoring climate change, but many of these costs are heavily influenced by ethical judgements about how we value things, now and in the future. These are judgments that science cannot prescribe.

The central battlegrounds on which we need to fight out the policy implications of climate change concern matters of risk management, of valuation, and political ideology. We must move the locus of public argumentation here not because the science has somehow been "done" or "is settled"; science will never be either of these things, although it can offer powerful forms of knowledge not available in other ways. It is a false hope to expect science to dispel the fog of uncertainty so that it finally becomes clear exactly what the future holds and what role humans have in causing it. This is one reason why British columnist George Monbiot wrote about climategate, "I have seldom felt so alone." By staking his position on "the science," he feels alone and betrayed when some aspect of the science is undermined.

If climategate leads to greater openness and transparency in climate science, and makes it less partisan, it will have done a good thing. It will enable science to function in the effective way it must do in public policy deliberations: Not as the place where we import all of our legitimate disagreements, but one powerful way of offering insight about how the world works and the potential consequences of different policy choices. The important arguments about political beliefs and ethical values can then take place in open and free democracies, in those public spaces we have created for political argumentation.
« Última modificación: Viernes 04 Diciembre 2009 23:02:32 pm por pj »